Sections: Sales/Marketing Nov 29th, 2008 27 Comments 
Business Week has a great article on the general atmosphere of the German auto industry and the specific issues it faces. Highly recommended for those who want to get a picture of the challenges companies like BMW face. Here’s a quick excerpt:
Some senior executives already question whether Daimler and BMW will survive the crisis as independent companies. And close examination reveals that both companies significant Achilles heels.
The biggest risk for BMW stems from its successes in recent years. The Munich-based company risked almost everything for its goal of finally overtaking rival Mercedes-Benz. BMW has almost doubled its car sales since 1999, and since 2007 the Bavarian carmaker has been the world’s top seller in the premium class.
BMW has achieved this mainly by expanding its model line downward, with the 1 Series and the Mini. This weakened the company’s profitability. But BMW has also boosted its sales by offering customers attractive leases and car loans; today this approach is used to sell every second car the company moves off its lots. This has increased risk.
While Daimler has only about €11 billion ($13.8 billion) on its books for leased vehicles, it is almost €20 billion ($25 billion) at BMW. That is BMW’s major weakness.
BMW based its leasing calculations on an estimated residual value for the cars when customers return them after three or four years. But this value has little to do with reality these days, because used car prices fall during an economic crisis. Besides, more and more customers who purchased a BMW on credit can no longer afford their car payments. In the first nine months of this year alone, BMW had to establish reserves of more than €1 billion ($1.25 billion) to make up for the difference, and more reserves are likely to follow.
The second risk for BMW lies in the fact that customers are increasingly buying smaller models, or at least are opting for smaller engines in the larger 5 Series and 7 Series. Because of this, Munich-base engine factories have slid into the danger zone this year.
You can read the rest below:
+ German Auto Industry Facing the Abyss / Business Week
So im a tad confused on how the 1 series and the Mini are hurting BMW. I had heard that the 1 series wasnt too profitable for our friends in Munich but I just always assumed that MINI, with its no bargain haggle, lower MSRP prices stuff would be profitable sense everybody either pays MSRP or over it.
ReplyIMO there is not much differentiation between 1 and 3 in US. Why buy 128 when you can get 328 for not much more? Maybe if you are paying outright, but with 3-4 years loan difference is not sufficient. I see new 3ers, but very few 1ers these days. In fact, in the two last weeks I saw just one 128i. Plus, 1 looks odd with its buggy eyes, it does not look aggressive. Many perceive it as a ‘girly’ car. IMO, BMW should have brought 4cyl model and should have made them look as BMWs supposed to look: mean. They are not supposed to look like friendly bugs – that’s for Toyota.
ReplyYa, I agree with Michael. I’d buy a 3er way before a 1er (which I did). The price was just too similar.
Reply…and the 1-Series cars look like they’ve got their eyes wide open. Too ‘cute.’
ReplyI am not sure if I agree with this piece in entirety. The MINI and 1er are not negatively impacting BMW, the way they worded this piece and the facts they are trying to represent are two different things.
As BMW models have increased in size people (mostly in the EU) have been able to step “down” a model. The 1 (5 door) is the size of the past 3, the current 3 is the same as the old 5, the current 5 as the past (E38) 7, the E65 and F1 are in a larger class all together.
The issue is BMW is selling less larger engines which had incurred a premium and thus more profit for that model. In the EU and outside the US small diesels, 4 cylinder gas engines outsell all others by a ton, with fuels so expensive this makes sense.
In the US BMW does not offer these smaller powerplants so it does not “fit” this description at all and in no way impacts the step down in larger displacement numbers.
The 1 series leases have never been subsidized so they should not be impacted by lease turn in depreciation issues. The 1 and MINI also have gotten some people into cars the brand would not otherwise seen due to pricepoint. And by no means does this mean they are cheap cars.
Where BMW went wrong with the leases was they figured demand would remain as high as it was when there was a small number of BMW used cars on the market (mid E46 cycle). BMWs now are a dime a dozen on the used car market, it is flooded with used cars far exceeding the demand for them and this kills the value. It also did not help that dealers needed to discount new cars to move them off lots further decreasing used values.MINI demand has always been high since the supply is limited, (they need to be sure they do not kill values by overproducing cars).
BMW is in the best labor situation out of any brand and this was by no accident.
Here is something else to ponder: Why wouldn’t BMW ask for help? Even if there is only a small issue they could “sell” it and get some aid making it even easier to survive in this climate. There is NO way BMW would even move production from Munich, the Labor people (union) are trying to say this is a possibility and that those workers need saving… BMW would sell off everything else in existence before Munich… plain and simple.
-Michael
ReplyGood job Michael, think you have pretty well summed up my ideas as well about the BMW brand. I have read and re-read the article by Dietmar several times and can’t quite figure out how he has gotten some of his opinions, still have to say its a interesting view into the auto industry in Germany. Think we generally hear a lot about the big 3 without really getting the idea that the problems are hitting most all manufactures.
ReplyMichael, 1 is not a replacement for ‘98 3 series. 1 is smaller. One good thing about autos.msn.com is that it does not delete old models from its comparo database (as opposed to Edmunds). 1 seats 4 (and funny, but 2008 328 coupe also seats 4!) while ‘98 328 seats 5. 1 has 2 inches less leg room in the rear – that’s a BIG difference. And yet 128 weighs 120 lb more than ‘98 328. This is very very sad.
1-Series 128i Coupe 3-Series 328i Standard Seating 4 5 Front Headroom (in.) 37.90 38.10 Rear Headroom (in.) 37.10 37.30 Front Legroom (in.) 41.40 41.10 Rear Legroom (in.) 32.00 34.00 Front Shoulder Room (in.) 54.00 53.50 Rear Shoulder Room (in.) 53.40 53.30
ReplyI also do not agree with the view about the 1 series or Mini Brand. I own an MCS, and bought it because of what it offered in performance at its price point. I know many of my “Mini” friends did the same, and wouldn’t trade their car for a 3 series or similar due to the lack of “performance” at the higher price point. Mini’s have always had the best resale value in the industry as they hold value better then any other car out there. The 1 series is smaller then a 3 series, but if you look at the side by side reviews by people who have actually driven the 135i, you’ll see that it simply outperforms. There are a huge supply of convertibles on the lots, but it is hard to find any of the hardtop 135i’s out there, testiment to how well these cars sell. Personally I don’t care how “cute” a cars headlights are, as a BMW fan I drive their cars for performance, which the 135i can be had for well under $40K if you can do without leather seats and some of the electronic bobbles they try to sell ya these days.
My only critique of the 135i is that it is just too heavy for its size, and would be a monster if they could just lighten it up a bit.
ReplyMichael- If you notice in my break down I noted the 5 door 1 Series and not the coupe as compared to the E36. The weight gain is due to new safety requirements, and more options. Obviously the dimensions are not going to be identical but the point of my comment was to show that there is a method to the madness of people moving down a model and in the US this is less so than the rest of the world as we are still super-sized in mentality. The reason why the 1 and 3 coupe in the US seat 4 is that BMW wants coupes and converts to seat 4, just like the X6 (coupe). The 1 hatch seats 5.
ReplyYeah, it’s all nice, but in US there are no 1 hatches. Also, I don’t really believe that some “new requirements” really justify hundreds of pounds of weight gain. Most probably weight gain because of size gain – BMW is trapped in the “each new gen must be bigger than previous” as any other manufacturer – at least in US. Like if cars are restaurant portions 
Mini is totally different. I don’t think every Mini buyer is an enthusiast. Mini has excellent price point for its looks, performance and uniqueness. All below $20K. Unfortunately, 1 does not have much of that benefit. It does not look unique, it costs too much. Someone looking for $30-40K+ car will most probably be looking elsewhere. Most cars in this range come with leather and power everything standard. Only minority of hardcore enthusiasts will consider barebone 135 or 128 based on pure driving experience. Majority will be spending $35K elsewhere or on 3 series. Remember consumer mantra: “value for money”.
ReplyMichael, you don’t think Mini buyers are “enthusiasts”? If you have ever met most Mini buyers you would know that they are more of an “enthusiast” then most of the common BMW buyers who buy the BMW for how it makes them look. Mini’s do not buy you much in terms of social status. As a nearly 6 foot tall male, I have had many people ask me why I would buy my MCS over a BMW or Lexus, etc, etc. Simply put, if you drive a Mini, you will know why most Mini drivers are enthusiasts. If you spend time with any Mini owners you will find they know more about their car, the engine and suspension then most common BMW owners. My Mini cost me $34,000 loaded, and you can buy a new 2009 JCW Mini Cooper for $40,000 if you want all of the nice extras.
In regards to only a handful of people buying a barebone 135i or 128i for just driving experience, you should visit the 1 series club at http://www.1addicts.com to see how many “bare bone” enthusiasts there really are out there. I am in the market for a 135i, and I am constantly looking around. Where you can easily find cabrio’s on the lot, there are not usually many tin tops just sitting there. They sell faster then they get them in. Even in these tougher times, they are not offering that many deals as they simply do not have to. I like the 3 series, but would never buy one.
ReplyTodd, you may be enthusiast as are 1addicts. You and similar enthusiasts spending $35K on Mini probably account for 1% of sales. However, most of the Minis I see (and I see plenty) are base model. Again: I am talking about average customers that account for majority of the sales. Here is another example: my neighbor owns 2 BMWs (and 5 cars total) and he is not a car guy at all (and money wise he is probably more important to BMW than someone buying 1). I see more BMWs without sport package than with it (which is, of course, an abomination for any enthusiast). Most BMWs are sold with automatic transmission (I guess you already know it).
I’d like to see official sales numbers by model. What you (or I) want is rather irrelevant.
ReplyJust as a random experiment, I walked around a shopping plaza parking lot. Found 4 Minis, 1 S, 3 base. Also found 5 examples of 3 series. 2 modern 328i without sport package on 17″ wheels, one modern 328xi, one older 325i (no sport package either), one older 330i. All automatic. No 335 or 1 series of any kind.
So much for enthusiasm.
ReplyMichael…where do you live? In atlanta where I live almost every Mini I see is an S. I belong to a large Mini Club and the same is true there. I would say that MCS outnumber standard Mini”s 3 to 1 here. As far as the 1 series conversation you get less argument from me, but I will say that the 1 series is only in its second model year and most people don’t even know they exist. Since most of the BMW owners are prestige buyers they often go with what is on the lot and never dream of ordering their own car. With 1 series supply being stripped by demand there really are not a lot on the lot for people to see or drive and if given a choice these folks will buy a slightly larger 3 series when there are tons on the lot in various shapes and colors. Not to mention that the 3 series is one of the most popular used cars out there and many BMW owners buy used. 1 series are too knew to even be found used. With acceleration .5 seconds slower then an M, and the switch to smaller cars, I would guess the 1 will rise in popularity the longer it is out there. Surely these rough economic times hurt the sale of any high end cars though.
ReplyMichael- Hate to tell you this but any 328 with 17 inch wheels has the sport package, no matter when it was built so your observation is either off or there is something incorrect in your facts.
I am sure it depends on the region but where I am there are a ton more “S” Minis than base cars, in fact I am surprised when I see a just a cooper.
I only see about one 1 series a week (excluding my friend’s car) as the volume of these is very low and they are still new to the market, I have actually only seen 2 convertibles driving since they were released. Another car in the same boat is the Z4///M coupe, excluding friend’s I never see one. But this is a niche car and a hard sell to most buyers (thus the overall poor sales numbers of the model). A bit off topic but I see a lot of X6 models now on the roads…. frightening how fast these things picked up.
Depending on your location it could also be the income level of the region, as it appears if these cars are all base automatics (including MINIs) people are not spending the money on the higher end models, or are people just getting into the brand.
Go to my local mall and it would be the opposite, very few lower model cars, more JCW and ///M versions etc. The car prices are static while the income levels vary from place to place…. I live in a very upscale region and that plays a huge role in what cars people buy… plain and simple.
Another type is one I can categorize my wife in; the person who does not not want or “need” more car- she could have had the 335 but did not want it, she said it was overkill for her and was a waste of money. She also had no interest in the sport pack as it is much harsher and she is not trying to race anyone or even cares about tire gap, she wanted a safe fairly efficient car that gave her a descent ride with some luxury. All she knows is that the drive is much sportier than her Audi (which she is driving again due to some issues with the DMV on the BMW),that the dual zone climate control actually works and the Xenons are better…. she is happy and BMW sold a car. Yes hers is auto as she has a bad left knee from ballet and for her to shift would require her to wear a brace and that is not happening (though she does prefer a manual).
In the end BMW is in the market to sell cars, the Big 3 produce cars to sit on the lots so whatever model they are or in whatever form at least they are being driven…
ReplyNorthwest – which, I think, is average. Not as flashy as TX or CA, but still enough money. No X6 on the road at all, I’ve seen only one at the dealerhsip. I see M3 (E46 and E9x), Z4M is pretty popular as well. I am not sure about harsh times, I see new 3er pretty often (temp license plate, etc). I do can tell sport vs. no sport (not just by wheels, although better wheels typically indicate performance enthusiast)
I don’t think BMW (or any other company) is 100% about selling cars. There is plenty of politics up there, I am sure there are people in management pushing their own agendas which have nothing to do with selling cars or pleasing customers. Like that former exec known for “no 4 cyls in US!”.
I would never recommend BMW to my SO. Japanese only. Sorry, I want peace in my marriage. My BMWs got broken so much more often than our Japanese cars, it is not even funny.
ReplyMost probably BMW already lost me. My lease is up next year and I am generally dissatisfied with my BMW (I was fully satisfied with my E36). At this point there is nothing interesting for me in what BMW is offering in US, I don’t see quality improving or cars getting any lighter. BMW is too inefficient for commuting and not sporty anymore for the weekend fun. It ia now a big, big compromise. I hope MY 2010 will bring better and more interesting cars, but my expectations are rather low. Perhaps it is time to get two cars instead – one for commuting and one for fun. Thus by 2010 I may be with another brand(s).
ReplyMichael, what do you drive? If your looking for a larger family size car that can seat 5 then your going to have a comprimise on performance due to weight. If you looking for performance, then go out and test drive a 300 hp 135i that just screams performance. It is a real blast to drive, and for a very modest cost you can upgrade the suspension to make its handling go from great to Freak’n incredible! If you have $70,000 to spend then go out and get a Mercedes C63 AMG. If you just want performance, then go out and buy a new 2009 JCW Mini Cooper or maybe even the JCW Clubman if you need space. My understanding is that BMW plans on using its twin turbo 4 cyl in some 2010 models like the 135i, which should create an efficient “rocket”. Or you can buy a Lexus if you are worried about it not having any problems. The only problem is that a Lexus suffers from some serious handling issues as compared to BMW’s or other German cars.
ReplyI am driving E60 530. 135 is too small for a daily driver car, back seat is tiny even for children and car way too expensive for what it offers. 335 is too heavy and not available without iDrive or RFTs. I am not buying anything consuming below 20mpg, especially pigs like AMG or M3 since I want my children to grow to be environmentally responsible people and not spoiled brats. BMW that is consuming gas as a truck is a shame. I think I’ll buy used Lotus and something reliable AWD with decent back seat for daily commuting for a total of 70-75K.
E36 M3 sedan was perfect car. Light, balanced, efficient. Didn’t any turbos or 300hp to help it moving. There is no replacement.
You keep talking monstrously powerful cars while I don’t care about 0-60 times. I care about handling which is about weight. I am not interested in a 3 ton 1000hp cars even if it does 0-60 in 3 seconds.
ReplySounds like maybe you should buy a Pius..oh..I mean a prius Let me get this straight. You don’t want your kids to grow up to be spoiled brats but your going to spend $70-$75K total on two cars ??? If your so worried about your gas consumption and how it effects your children, maybe you should just start taking the bus to work? As far as the 135i being too small for a daily driver car, what do you do with your daily drivers? Car Pool? I have a Mini and drive back and forth to work and it is just fine for a daily driver. I’ve even taken my buddy on a fishing trip and fit all of my tackle and even a cooler in the boot, and got 38 mpg all the way there. Maybe it is your expectations of what you need from a “daily driver” that is the problem. Unless your hauling around kids every day or moving furniture, why do you need a big back seat? People overseas have the whole “daily driver” mentality down, and almost all of their cars are getting smaller, not larger. My good friend has a 135i and I have traveled in his back seat along with one other friend. I’m not going to tell you that we had “first class” room, but as a nearly 6′ male, I was comfortable during the ride. If your looking for a daily driver, the 135i will do just fine, but if you want to bus..then go buy a minivan. The 135i is not the car to take 5 people across the multiple states on vacation, but it is fine for a 4 hour drive to Charleston, SC to go fishing!
Maybe you should just buy a used car so you can get the car of your dreams. As far as handling goes, I’ll tell you what, come on over to the Dragon her in SC, NC, TN area and lets see what car handles the twisties better, your “daily driver” or my daily driver? I can drive 200 miles on a motoring trip to the mountains and still come back home with a half a tank of gas to spare thanks to efficient turbo use in a 4 cyl engine.
ReplyAs far as Mini sales go…check out this quote and article: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/12/02/bmw-usa-sales-down-36-for-november/
MINI Brand Sales
MINI USA reported November sales of 4,545 automobiles, up 43.1 percent from the 3,177 cars sold in November 2007. Year-to-date, the division reported sales of 50,511 automobiles, an increase of 31.3 percent, compared to the 38,483 cars reported in the first eleven months of 2007.
“We’ve seen some slowing in MINI showroom traffic just the same as everyone else in the last month,” said Jim McDowell, Vice-President of MINI USA. “However, we’re still positive about our future sales due to the fact the recent frenzy towards more efficient transportation has introduced more consumers to our brand. This has helped us hit the milestone of 50,000 sales in November, one month sooner than we expected.”
Reply335 is too heavy and not available without iDrive or RFTs. BMW that is consuming gas as a truck is a shame. I think I’ll buy used Lotus and something reliable AWD with decent back seat for daily commuting for a total of 70-75K.
A 335 is lighter than your 530, with more power and at least the same efficiency. 3 series cars do NOT come standard with iDrive (the new system is amazing BTW) and the latest generation RFTs are vastly improved and the suspension has been further tweaked. BMW has set the standard with fuel economy and emissions for all manufacturers with the Efficient dynamics program. A 300 HP car that gets just about (and can achieve) 30 MPG highway is impressive, and no I am not talking EPA I am talking my seat time and doing the speed limit on cruise for a 300 mile trip.
Your choices in AWD with a decent back seat are Audis, VW or MB…. and none of them drive even close to a BMW.
As for the Lotus, you are complaining about RFTs…. have you ever tried to get IN and OUT of a Lotus… good luck.
I think you may be misinformed on a lot of your points, not to say I would not like to see lighter BMWs but there are in fact reasons for the weight. You know like sunroofs, larger wheels, bigger breaks, structural beams, and all that. Cars built in the early 90’s can not compare to what is required and expected of safety today.
Yes I am a big fan of BMW, I also have an Audi in the garage and have had basically every German brand there is and even an English made one, but I do call BMW out on things and have been accused by some to be too out in the open about my dislikes/opinions.
In the end when you research facts, experience different products and compare honestly BMW is one of the best deals on the market for what you get and experience… Yes there are some shortcomings but nothing comes close especially in the 3 series category.
ReplyIt is interesting how quickly word “environmental responsibility” quickly brings suggestion for extremities.
I do carpool. I actually carry 3 people daily in my 530 4 days a week. Yes, I have two child seats in the back. Effective mpg of my car is better than that for a single driver in a Prius. Satisfied?
And what is about all that ridicule for Prius? IMO it is a well balanced car, relatively inexpensive, low polluting and roomy. Toyota deserves all the respect. I wish BMW would make something similar. Maybe it should be spending as much on efficient cars as it is spending on V8 twin turbos.
Amount of money spent on cars has nothing to do with spoiling. Kids should learn that is is not OK to burn gas like there is no tomorrow sitting in 500hp in traffic even if they have the money. Weekend fun – maybe, but be sensible on daily commute.
Please stop pointing to “safety”, it is rather weak argument. Sunroof is plastic and 90s cars had them too. Not that they were running on 13″ wheels either. Bigger brakes are not necessary if car is not heavy. As I said – if BMW made 3 same size as it was in 90s, it would weight the same or less. And it wouldn’t need 300 hp to move it. Neither I need it. My 530 has 255hp and is heavier and you know what – dynamics is just fine.
Yes, I tried Lotus. It is an excellent car and I don’t mind getting in and out. Esp it is not going to be a daily driver. Point is: BMW is a compromise now. Sportier models are too small and larger models are too heavy and need way too much horsepower to move. Thus it is time to stop spending 75K on compromises and instead get a real sport car and a good commuter car. Unfortunately, BMW does not offer interesting cars for commuting. I certainly don’t need 300hp in my daily driving but I do appreciate good handling. I’d definitely consider 320d/325d with 6MT, but it is not available. Thanks, but I don’t care about 335d – too much power, too expensive.
ReplyThere is nothing wrong with a prius if that is what you want. What’s wrong is with the people who drive them and how many act like everyone should give up their larger engines for something electric. I am all for fuel efficiency, and will be the first person to buy an affordable electric car that doesn’t sacrifice performance and HP. I can’t afford the Tesla, but something like that really inspires me.
The world is too full of people wanting to make decisions for everyone else. What works for you and your family is fine, but please don’t decide that we all should believe in the fodder that you peddle. If you want to strap a bunch of carpoolers in the back of your car, great! If that makes you feel better about yourself as a person and a father..super! I guess my thought is that BMW isn’t going to come up with a business model based on your desire for a well handling car-pooling car. If that is what you want, maybe I could suggest the Nissan Rogue? Most of us want a comprimise between power and luxury, so BMW makes cars that can appeal to both. Most don’t have the room to have one luxury performance car and one commuter…but if that works for you…great. Again, I don’t think you represent the rest of the folks out there though…
What do you have against turbo’s? Do you realize what BMW is achieving with Turbo’s? Look at the R56 Mini Cooper. It has more HP, more Torque then the older mini’s and gets great gas mileage. I have friends that have driven their R56 across the country and have averaged around 39 to 40 MPG. Most easily get around 35 MPG. Again, now that people are looking for more effeciency BMW is looking at using 4 cyl engines on some of their platforms. The new twin turbo 4 cyl will be a beast, but it will also achieve GREAT gas mileage.
Your statement about newer cars and safety equipment being a lame argument is silly. It points to how committed you are to your belief even if it is not based in reality. Are you really trying to make the arguement that the new safety cages and equipment are not adding to the weight of the car? Why wouldn’t BMW make lighter cars if they could? I recently replaced my runflats and I now get better gas mileage. Those things are very heavy. There is no way that if you sat down and went through the newer cars vs the older cars you could make the argument that the new safety equipment adds to the weight. Sure BMW could make cars without DSC, Xenon’s, Adaptive Cornering lights, big brakes, extra interior trim, heavy wheels, etc, but they are selling what American’s have wanted. If a market exists for light weight, “bare minimum” cars without a lot of extra’s then I am sure there will be someone going after that market. Right now there doesn’t seem to be that big of a market for such cars.
When I get my 135i I promise that I will set aside some time with my son to take him for a spirited drive so he can understand at his core why his dad chose such a car instead of buying a slow, earth friendly Smart Car that barely gets enough more gas mileage to warrant the sacrifice of buying something you don’t enjoy.
ReplyBTW, mentioned Prius has more space in the rear seat than 328 and with all its batteries weighs 400lb less than 328.
It is of course, totally unsafe car. Totally. Right?
ReplyActually, BMW does make cars I want. It just does not sell them in US. You are right – what America wanted. Like GM. Or Ford. So now sales are cratering. Which is great since maybe that will make BMW NA reconsider their views on the market. I am so glad we had $4 gas. X7 got canceled! I would love to see $8 gas. Seriously.
Why wouldn’t BMW make lighter cars? I have no idea. As you said, they keep pushing heavier RFTs for some reason. Why? I don’t know. I ditched RFTs as well same day I bought the car. Same question who needs 500hp car. I guess some people have that inferiority complex, it appears there is sufficient number of them to create a decent market.
I have nothing against turbo – did I say I do? Speaking of features my E36 M3 had all that. OK, maybe no swiweling headlights but I have no idea why do I need them, my other car does not have them and I can’t tell any difference. I averaged 23-24 mpg on the same commute on which 530 does 19 and 335 does 18 (I tried).
So with all the technology BMWs became less efficient at least in US.
ReplySpeaking of burning gas, about 40 years go most people smoked. Then they discovered second hand smoke effect and introduced some regulations. Now most people don’t smoke and smoking is banned in public places. I am sure there was resistance and cries about “this is my life I do what I want with it” and outrage about tax on tobacco products. However, this country is now a better place IMO.
Now we discovered that apparently CO2 not as harmless as we thought and adding it to atmosphere affect everyone even those not driving. So some people try to smoke less and some are trying quitting. This is, of course, a free country so someone who wants to continue their habits can still do so at appropriate taxation and insurance rates.
And brand (or even power) of the car is totally unrelated to spirited driving. I see plenty of V8s driving slooooow and plenty of I4 driving pretty lively.
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